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Subject Topic: K&N Filters May Harm Your Engine Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Throttle
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Posted: Sep 27 2004 at 9:52am | IP Logged Quote Throttle

When I was trying to decide whether or not to use a K&N a couple of years ago I came across this site:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm

This guy really took a common sense approach to testing this.  It seems that at least in this test they do flow more particulate matter.  This doesn't answer the question of how harmful it is to your engine though.  But it seems reasonable to me that less dirt in the cylinders is a good thing.  If you're going to keep your truck for the long haul (pun intended), a high-flow filter may not be for you.

The other issue is performance.  If you are trying to eek out an extra 10 or 20 hp at 6000 rpm, a high flow filter may be for you.  If you mainly rely on mid range torque for you acceleration a K&N is not necessary.  K&Ns literature gives cfm ratings for stock panel paper filters.  If you do the math (I have) you'll find that flow restriction is only an issue at very high rpms. 

http://www.knfilters.com/facts.htm

Note that these are average numbers.  Now the cfm requirement of the Titan can be calculated by multiplying the displacement (341 cubic inches divided by 1728 for cubic feet) by the rpms divided by 2 (1 intake stroke out of 2 crank revolutions).  This yields the cfm requirement for the Titan engine at that particular rpm. 

For example: (341 / 1728) * (6000 / 2) = 592 cfm at 6000 rpm.  That is not within the average clean paper panel filter (or K&N for that matter), but the Titan's panel filter is larger than the average unit.  An average unit would be more like a mid size sedan like a Maxima.  I originally did the calculations for a Maxima and found that it needed 318 cfm at 6000 rpm, which is within the average.  Since I do not know the cfm rating on Titan filters, I cannot say for sure about them.  But I would venture a guess that it is near 600 cfm.  More info here would be interesting though.

I have performed back to back testing with Maximas and found that there may be a slight performance increase on the high end, but measuring the acceleration difference throughout the rev band yielded a different result.  By leaving it in 3rd (it was a manual) and letting the engine pull from 2000 to 6000 rpm, there was no difference in the acceleration until maybe above 5500.  And after repeated tests I was still unsure about that high end gain.  I really enjoy high performance, but I will not sacrifice engine longevity to get it, especially if the power increase is only marginal, and at an rpm I am almost never at. 

There are other flow issues that should be considered.  Easing restriction does not always produce more power.  It does in many cases, just not all.  Since naturally aspirated (non-blown) engines fill the cylinders based on vacuum, pressure in the induction stream is essential.  A buddy of mine had a 427 race Camaro when I was in school that ran stronger on a single 4 than two 4 barrels.  Why?  Pressure.  Just like a nozzle increases the pressure of a water hose, a smaller intake can sometimes pressurize an induction system.  In the short window an engine has to fill a cylinder this pressure is a big issue.  So it is possible to actually reduce power if air flows too freely.  In other words, there could be an offsetting decrease in power in the low end or mid range with a K&N filter.  I doubt it though.  Most of the airflow velocity and turbulence issues are handled by our very effective variable intake system.

For me, I guess I have decided K&N filters are not worth it.  The extra dirt in the engine is what really gets me.  K&N says its filters trap more particles once they get a little dirty (they don't mention what happens to flow), but that's just another area where I'm skeptical.  If the power increase was across the band and very fat (and its not), I would still be leery of this dirt issue.  I am planning on keeping my Armada as long as it will run.  If I still own it 10 years from now with let's say 300k on the odo and it uses little or no oil, I will be a happy dude.   However, for you folks that plan on trading before 100k, it is probably a non-issue. 

 

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Posted: Sep 30 2004 at 2:44pm | IP Logged Quote IQ9*

Keep in mind also that Nissan MAF's generally hate/more sensetive to oil type filters. I have discontinued my use of them as you have.

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CactusJackSlade
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Posted: Oct 01 2004 at 12:11am | IP Logged Quote CactusJackSlade

I have been a big fan of Amsoil air filters, oil filters and sythetic oil. The are very clean filters (allow few particulates through). The air filters are washable and flow very well, although maybe not quite as much as a K&N. I have found these air filters to exceed my filtering expectations and still flow about as well as the pleated K&N type filters.  When I find the airflow vs filtration comparison data I will post it. I believe they test against the K&N type filter and as I recall the Amsoil filter was as good if not better on airflow and kicked everybodys butt on filtration.

The Amsoil air filters are a dual density foam type with oil saturation. I have used them on many applications and never had trouble... only better performance. I have had BAD experiences with off brand foam filters though, the Amsoils are a very different type of foam(s).

Currently I am going to figure out how to custom make an Amsoil air filter for my Volant system since none is availible for a Volant pleated type.

To give you an idea on how well the Amsoil filters clean the air, on my '87 Nissan hardbody when using a typical Fram air filter (doughnut type) I would pull the filter top cover off and inside the filter canister by the throttle body (the "clean side") you would always see fine dust/dirt when I ran the Fram filters. When I went to the Amsoil filter this fine dust was non-existant... even after not cleaning it for over 25K miles at a time!

I agree completely with throttle about the amount of dirt vs the airflow needed, especially in a truck.

I also plan to change out all my fluids to Amsoil synthetic oils (except that mysterious proprietery Nissan automatic transmission fluid) at my next oil change.

I still have my '87 hard body Nissan King Cab and it runs like a charm with 260K... I installed all synthetic oils at 5,000 miles.

All I can say is that my pleated type Volont/K&N air filter is TEMPORARY!... as well as the regular type oil the dealer just changed.

Oh, I got about a 2.5 mpg or so boost on my old Nissan with syn oil and air filter... heck, if I get 1 mpg better on my Titan I'll take it! 

Here is the Amsoil website:  http://www.amsoil.com

CJS



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Posted: Oct 01 2004 at 10:36am | IP Logged Quote IQ9*

Where are you getting the Amsoil filter?

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Grudge
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Posted: Oct 01 2004 at 6:46pm | IP Logged Quote Grudge

A Fram Air Hog Filter maybe called for.  Its a High flow Paper Type filter.

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Posted: Oct 01 2004 at 11:04pm | IP Logged Quote CactusJackSlade

IQ9*,

WAY....back when, I raced roadraced motorcycles. I picked up a local dealer as a sponser. I loved what it did with my race bike (cooler temps, better shifting etc.) so I put it in my truck.

When I quit racing I became a "lifetime dealer" just so I could buy it at cost for myself. I really don't peddle the stuff, just believe in it.

I think the best way to get ahold of Amsoil products is to either inquire online here: http://www.amsoil.com/dealerinfo2.htm or check the yellow pages.

Just a story... the race bike I had was a 1986 Suzuki GSXR 750 I ran 100% synthetic Amsoil in it. It was stock except for a pipe and carbs. I raced the hell out of that thing all season long... a full year and HARD! I never did anything except change the oil, adjust the valves and change the spark plugs.

As luck would have it I took a good spill on the LAST RACE of the season that totaled my bike... After I came off it proceeded to self destruct into a concrete retaining wall (Firebird Int'l Raceway in Phx). The bike was ruined. It was so messed up that even the engine case mounts were broken. The only thing salvagable were internal motor parts, one wheel and the seat.

Anyway, when I pulled the motor apart to salvage spare parts I could not believe my eyes. The cylinders, bearings anything that should show wear looked like brand new. The guy who bought the cams could not believe they were used. This first hand experience plus just the way it made my motor run better and I was hooked on the stuff for life...

... so that's my "Amsoil story".

CJS

PS: Grudge,

I'd stay away from a "high flow" paper air filter... that equals lot's o dirt... unless I see evidence otherwise.

 



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earlofcrankcase
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Posted: Oct 02 2004 at 4:35am | IP Logged Quote earlofcrankcase

Sorry to hear that one about the bike. I'm going to check out the amsoil.  86 spotbikes don't compare to 04's. Remember your kid's nintendo? Two years later it was crap. Then it was the next latest greatest for another two. I've lost the concept with the vidio games. They left with my boy. Point is. The bikes have taken the same tour with the teck. We don't bounce like we used too. But if you have the will. Their waiting for you. The ride is twice what it was. Hold on to the kid in you. If you don't let him out to play now & then he'll be gone.

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Posted: Oct 03 2004 at 11:18pm | IP Logged Quote Drew

CactusJackSlade wrote:

... so that's my "Amsoil story".

CJS:

I have been changing the oil on my car for years. Can you give me some pointers on switching to Amsoil Synthetic?

Do I have to flush?  If yes, what is flushing?

How many miles do you wait before you change your Synth again?

What SAE are you using (Link Here: http://intershop.amsoil.com/cgi-bin/Amsoil.storefront/4160cd 9e007ec60a271bd1f0e3f00712/Catalog/1108 )

Thanks for the tips. You convinced me to switch to Amsoil, I just need to make sure I do it right

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Posted: Oct 04 2004 at 10:48am | IP Logged Quote IQ9*

You don't have to do any type of flush. Just drain as usual and replace with Amsoil.

CJS-

Thanks for the lookup on Amsoil. I am really interested in a good oil type filter that the NIssan MAFs don't hate.



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Posted: Oct 04 2004 at 6:42pm | IP Logged Quote IQ9*

I just purchased one for the Skyline. I am putting the stock airbox back on and this will make a great addition. It was $38 shipped direct from Amsoil. Thanks for the info!!

 



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